these were the lessons of people surrounding her. i also found any number of relatives who had fought the good fight. a great aunt who sued northwest in university for discrimination in the year 1940s, a great great and who was in trouble to integrating spiegel, the catalog stores and department stores and in the 60s spoke to lyndon johnson's labor department and so on. these word the people populated michelle ng obama's youth and our with her in many ways in what she is doing now. >> if you haven't read the book, one thing i would commend to you is this rich description of the history and life of the south side of chicago which i wasn't as familiar with as i should have been but it is a wonderful aspect of the book and the six degrees of separation from michelle obama is pretty astounding too especially in

terms of civil rights leaders recognize either a connection or are related to her, pretty amazing and thank you for your research on that. those who have questions make your way to the microphone, we will cover two other areas and open up to your questions. i want to start with linda hirshman. why do you think it is that justice ginsberg has been so co-ceo in forming friendships with people who are so ideologically different than she? >> people ask me that a lot. who besides justice scalia do you have in mind? >> justice o'connor. >> let's talk about some more interesting things, her relationship with justice o'connor. when i started writing the book, it went to lunch together, and

went to the store. i wanted a shoe guy at the store near the supreme court. that would have been a scope. endeavour sneaked out to lunch together. i asked every person who believes in their vicinity whether they see jobs together. they would not be -- they had an affectionate alliance. one of the lessons i hope people in general and women in particular take from my book, you can have an affectionate alliance and make more change in either one of you could make a loan. you don't have to be bffs. there was no justice on the supreme court who mattered more who have a lot of power than

justice o'connor because she revered o'connor and for being the successful pioneer she had been an she knew o'connor's life would change when the second woman came. she wanted it to be in a good way. that relationship seems to be subtle and productive and interesting. in the 22 cases involving women's issues they heard when they sat together from 1993-2005, they disagreed on two of them, 1/22 of the number. everyone asks about scalia so that we give you the executive summary. it represents an interesting task in america when people with different political views could still go out to dinner and put it together as they said. it is interesting because that seems to be an era at that is now gone. the second reason, you know what

they say. they shared a common love of the language. they always say they shared a common love of the constitution but the constitution that she loved and reconstitution he loved were only the slightest resemblance to one another. therefore it is a little weird. sort of like marty, he was funny and gregarious and he sort of played that role for the rather inward looking ruth bader ginsburg. i think the better question is about the two women. >> peter slevin, one of the things that struck me this week was michelle obama's gracious comments and condolences of nancy reagan about the effective mentoring she received from mrs. reagan which i suspect of lot of people don't know about. can you comment on the fraternity of first ladies and

how michelle obama has been able to use the benefit of that advice in her service? >> she spoke with every single first lady who was living when she got to the white house in 2009. she was particularly interested in advice on how to raise malia and sasha in the public eye. in 2007 when they started running, sasha was turning five, malia was turning 9. was one of her greatest worries, would she say to barack obama we are going to do this, you can run for the presidency, so she sought advice on that and living in this completely bizarre world, the strangest world's ever. you walk into the white house and you live in the bubbled as it is called lee can be seen what she said she would most like to do? she wants to drive a car with the windows down.

barack obama said he would like to sit alone on a park bench. this is the world's a in had been. each of the first ladies were unanimous in giving her one particular piece of advice, escape to camp david as often as you can. get out into your own world as much as you can. it is intriguing she was mentored and had relationships with these first lady's because mentoring is a central part of who she is. there's always a sense that she too will reach back, give back, be part of that sorry. >> what is your question? >> for linda hirshman and peter slevin. linda hirshman, i stay awake wondering about ruth bader ginsburg's health. how is she? can peter slevin, michelle obama has stated she would never run for office but do you think

there's any hope that she would? >> hoping against hope. barack obama was asked if you woke up after a long sleep and learned michele was running for president what would you think? he would say i would think she had been abducted by aliens. he said there are treating it -- three things in life, death, taxes and michele not running. he has made clear in every way you can imagine that she really doesn't want to do that. can you picture her in a room with mitch mcconnell? intriguing. this is not her world. >> i have no inside information. when i saw ginsberg four years

ago she looked fine. her friend was quoted today as saying she was still doing pushupss. she had gone horseback riding when i was working on my book. i have no reason to believe she is in any imminent danger. win live a long time. i hope that will be true of her as well. >> what is your question? >> requests from linda that she speak to justice o'connor's first job in law after she graduated and what she had to do to get that job. i am sure you know the story. >> justice o'connor was determined to get a lot job. went gibson law firm said we can

give you a job, you can be a legal secretary. she said no thank you. many years later they invited justice o'connor to speak at the 100th anniversary of the founding of their law firm and she went and she reminded them of their first encounter. she later told david letterman it was the most fun speech she had ever given. so she had heard the district attorney in california where they were living while john o'connor finished law school had once hired a women, and asked if she could work for him and had no money to hire her and said she would work for nothing until the guy is next appropriation and he said he had no room to put her at a desk and she thought his secretary would share her office with the future

justice o'connor because they got along so well. the secretary said okay. and so sandra day o'connor went to work for nothing, sharing an office with a secretary so determined was she to earn her living as she expressed it, with the training i had gotten. she always looked out at the world and didn't say i am a woman, why am i going to have trouble? she said i have a law degree i will get a lot job and do whatever was necessary to make it happen. it was one of her great strength. >> i would like to ask the panelists if they have questions for each other. >> from a clean getaway. >> in working on the "michelle obama" book i got interested in work/life balance, how to decide between professional accomplishment and what is

required to do that and living a fulfilling satisfying home life. you remember how many people in certain groups found their teeth grinding when she described herself as obama in chief. i think my most important role on this planet is to raise grounded, happy girls. i believe feminism is about the right to make choices. i am really curious what you found in justice ginsburg and justice o'connor and how they balance those worlds. >> justice ginsburg and justice o'connor are only two years, part with ginsburg the younger. ginsberg spend a little time -- international guard or the army or something. she graduated from law school in

1959 where o'connor graduated from law school in 1952. that is a big gap. by 1959, the world was starting to change. you had the poets in san francisco, brown vs. board of education in topeka, kansas, came in between o'connor entering the world and ginsberg entering the world and i believe all those varicose in age, their social histories are very different end their attitude towards blow role of marion and raising children and having a fulfilling career are very different. o'connor i think would agree with michelle obama that being a feminist is all about having she leases a doesn't matter what choices you make. ruth bader ginsburg would never say that wishy thought the choices you make mattered and she thought for a woman to be

able to use their capacities in the public world was part of a fulfilling life. so she was very different from o'connor. interesting to hear the o'connor's point of view from the mouth of someone young enough to be her daughter or younger. o'connor married john o'connor who she met in law school and had three children and at one point her nanny quit her job and stay home five years with having justice o'connor as your stay at home mom was probably not the best experience because she had such unbelievable energy and never sleeps. she decided in addition to running the junior league and being co-chair of the republican party organization, that she would cook a different meal every single night. even martin ginsburg didn't do that. finally, she says in her classic o'connor way to get away from

being president of the junior league she went back to work. >> michelle was born in 1964, different generation, 30 years after justice o'connor and she had the choice to stay home when she worked at the university of chicago and said it would drive her crazy and she clearly has worked hard to balance things. she has a drive to make a difference, she has a drive to succeed along the way and it has been intriguing how this played out and also like a reject test how many different groups received her choice is and how many different ways. an example of how the first lady without your power has influence and inevitably forever under the spotlight. >> first ladies are under the spotlight not because of who remembers, it is the rare first lady who is that were shack test and object of such interest.

eleanor roosevelt comes to mind. why is eleanor roosevelt, pardon the expression, hillary rodham clinton and michele obama. the answer, roosevelt and clinton and obama, a part of a social movement so women became important and what they fought and did became important and that put the spotlight on them. i don't ever remember anybody arguing about what is her name? laura bush's decision whether to be the mom in chief because we didn't actually -- when i say we i mean me, don't care about laura bush. [laughter] >> seems like a nice peon and was a librarian which was a great job when she was working

but they are for shack tests because they stand for social change and that made it hard for michelle obama. >> that is right because she felt, this would not come as a surprise to any prominent african-american woman either that you are meant to represent, that is one of the great challenges but it is a role that she has thrown herself into and when one thinks about her legacy it will be about her message and what she tried to do in terms of inequality and it will be -- it will be awhile before of first lady feeds kills ships to comedian stressed in drag. i will make a fool of myself to get the message out if that is what i have to do. i think that she has made

extraordinary strides in figuring out this job that when she came in made no sense to anybody. >> i give her enormous credit for doing this unbelievably difficult job, no question she had the finest line to walk that any first lady did. astonishing how hard it was and i give her enormous credit for doing it. i think at the end of the day the question is what is the message you are getting out? she did something like what sandra at did which was by being there and being successful at it, she got a message out that has very little to do with cale in my opinion. but she was the icon as was sandra and it took in her case as it did in sandra's and ruth's cases an unbelievable amount of

self discipline. >> i think that is an interesting place for us to end. we are out of time. thank our authors today. [applause] >> we will be adjourning to the bookstore sales tent and signing area booth number 153. peter slevin will be there

>> >>

will talk to gilbert who wrote "billion ball" it is about college sports and the funds they receive. >> host: linda hirshman, what is the relationship between sandra day o'connor and ruth bader ginsburg? were they friends? >> guest: i would say they had an affectionate alliances. they were not bff's. ruth bader ginsburg was really

with friends with scalia. and sandra day o'connor was really friends with lois powell and she and john and loi circumstanceslois went on vacation together. it was clear from their demeanor they had an affectionate alliance. >> host: what was their first meeting like? >> guest: i will say in 1981 when sandra day o'connor was approve pointed to the supreme court ruth bader ginsburg wasn't in washington. she heard about it on the radio and didn't know o'connor well. o'connor was a judge and ginsburg didn't know here but said she was glad to hear it.

we know they met before 1983 because when o'connor got on the supreme court she inherited potter stewart lawfirm and that firm had clerks for ginsburg. >> host: what about at the supreme court? what do you know about that? >> well, you know, we heard earlier that michele obama reached out to the other first ladies for information. there is a lot of tipping stepping points with the oral tradition.

and the etiquette argument, there are many unspoken ways in which o'connor helped ginsburg being a success but o'connor wanted him to be a success. >> host: is ruth bader ginsburg going to miss her buddy? >> guest: she misses her body so much. o'connor left in 2006 and somebody asked how she felt and she said lonely. she really missed sandra day o'connor in a thousand ways. here a cool way o'connor was of enormous value for ginsburg. she was senior by the time it was the end of her term. they speak in order of seniority at the conferences. so by 1993, when ginsburg came on, o'connor was very senior.

she spoke, i think, third. once she showed support ginsburg didn't have to make the argument because o'connor made the argument. and after she left, ginsburg started to notice the difference. sotomayor and justice hagan came and ginsburg is very well pleased they are there now. i think sotomayor helped that.

>> host: when i used the word buddy i was referring to antonin scalia. >> guest: oh, so sorry. everybody asks me about that. they say, and i believe it, they had a positive communion and it was in good writing and they corrected each other's draft and made them better. ginsburg said they were very close. >> host: linda hirshman, as an attorney, as a cultural historian, is lifetime

appointment, in your view, best for the supreme court? >> guest: i have been thinking about that a lot because the demographics changed. and even though supreme court, like many old rich people, live longer than others, so it is not compared to the general population. people live longer and women live a lot longer. so i have been thinking about this question. and there is an argument for limiting the tenure now that people's lifespan is so long. you have to, i think, amend the constitution which is hard to do but it is not a crazy suggestion. it means you have learned to plug as we saw justice kennedy do and you can develop positions that are different from what you

had when you were appointed. it is not crazy at a suggest this in today's population >> host: linda hirshman is our guest and go ahead with your question. >> caller: we have the same hair and style and color and we could be sisters. i wanted to ask when they take on the task as first ladies why don't they continue them after they leave? it is like a hobby. and i would like the reaction. >> guest: you mean like while childhood obesity continue to be pursued by michele obama in the white house. that is an interesting question. >> host: a little off topic but...

>> guest: lady bird johnson continued her beautification process after johnson left the white house so i think it is a matter of is it sincerely something that interest them or if it is safe and politically poplar to do and not hurting their husbands who are the elected people. >> host: julie in company. we are talking about supreme court, women in the supreme court, etc. >> caller: yes, i thought it was a great panel and i look forward to purchasing your book. before the break, you mentioned there is self-discipline. and i was wondering what would their habits, and how did they develop them, that made them so successful and so special? >> guest: well one thing they had is they never believed that they were cinderella. they thought they believed to be